I wasnt saying my art was 'better'..  i would never put my art up for auction like that.  i was simply saying 'at least my art 'is 'my own style' (.. even if it sucked) Its still my own line work.  I have made my points. Thats all I will say. 

So, what you are basically saying is that;

A) All manga can fall into 1 of maybe 3 max classifications
B) All fans of manga are the same.
and...
C) Your art is better than any mangaka.  Ever.

...I believe our discussion is done.

and ... im not saying it from an 'American Comic fan Point of View'.. Im saying it from an 'ARTIST point of view'.

art is about expressing whats YOURS!!!!!

To 'create' an image based on a copied style is ONLY A COPY. its not original at all.  like... come one people. dont you have your own voice? dont you have your own style? im sure if you looked for it - and then used it - there would be some pretty amazing things happening in the world. instead of the same line work that Manga provides in its NARROW field. 

Manga is the result of having NO Friends. It's a symptom brought on by having NO PERSONAL POINT OF VIEW, VOICE, or self respect!!! AND Manga-Cosplay is the most lonely thing that can happen to a person!!!! bunch of unclean rats. you manga people really are scum of the earth. i feel bad for people that know you and even worse for the people that birthed you.
 It's so fuking sad to see people pick up art supplies to copy this lame style... togo mogo pogo logo - who cares?!
it's all the same silly crap. people getting probed by tentacles, and big hair.


look manga fans... take the cat ears off, take a shower, turn that final fantasy dvd off and join the rest of the world or something- panda bears are cool (i will give you that much). erkkk the whole following is sad. the listening to malice mizer, gakt (or watever)... TAKING foto-booth-PICTURES WITH YOUR FRIENDS GIVING THE 'PEACE SIGN' ...  lame. really lame. i cant stress it enough how much it sucks.

Dear Stack (Pete in particular since I expect you to respond most vividly to this),

Why are mainstream/western comic fans so vehemently anti-manga?  Now now, I could make up tons of 'reasons' that point to manga actually being entertaining but that won't answer the question.  The reason is the same that New York hip hop hates Crunk or Hyphy music.  Noone likes to see their favorite king fall off the throne.  Honestly guys, get over yourselves.  Both forms of media are entertaining and have their ups and downs.

I recently found the website from a manga forum no less and have consequently gone through your entire 2007 catalog in about 2 nites.  You're cutting into my Sunwell time here, but eh I need to play less anyways.  While oing through your archives, I noticed on the graphic novel episode (where Alex mentioned Death Note...and didn't even push the product right.  You want people to read it, point out how the characters are actually smarter than readers for once.  What really drew me to it was the suspense, but I digress.) that one of the comments had some guy basically hating on Death Note and manga in general for Pete's lovely stereotypical reasons of big eyes and overexagerated emotion.

Before I turn this into a flame, what I really am trying to say is shut the hell up comic fans.  People like you make me want to actually stop reading comics for your narrow mindedness.  Yeah yeah, this ain't all of you(us? since I read them as well), but still.  Chill out.

2 of my favorite mangas are Oldboy (A manga about a guy locked away in a room for 10 years and trying to find who did  it to him), and Kindiachi Case Files (A murder mystery stories featuring one case over a large manga instead of multiple done in one stories.)

I think Alex has a point, kinda.  But I think he is mixing up preference and defining it as narrowmindedness on behalf of mainstream fans.  Of course, I feel he was also trying to stir up controversy anyways. ;)

i feel that as a big fan of american comics we are obssesed with collecting because comics is more than just pictures and words put together. It is a form of art, well for me the least. honestly i started to collecting hoping to hit the jackpot but then eventually i realized its more than it. I feel that 50 years from now i can look back at some american comic books and appreciate it for the art it was. While mangas on the other holds no value, stories that will soon to be forgotten.

Just to say dont think it's right to compare Manga and comic fans on this level. The books are written for totally different cultures. 

And not all comics are based around super heroes, Y the last man and Preacher are 2 big sellers that quickly come to mind. So again it's unfair to pigeon hole all american comic book readers in this way.

And if people collect comic for the money they may sell them on for, it's cause thats the way the industry was in the 90s. When some of them started collectin.

Basically you'll get arrogant fans in any genre of medium whether it's t.v., film, computers, or comics. We just cant let those idiots speak for the rest of us.

Oh n Manga blows lol

Hi guys! Thank you for doing the manga episode. I think your show will be better if you'd get more diversity in your reviews. I mean, make your programmes with a one Marvel title(the one you thought was the best that week), a DC title(using the same principle), some Image, some Darkhorse, some Manga(lot's of great stuff to mention). 

It would be better than a show of only DC, only manga or(as you usually do) only Marvel(which has so few really good titles to begin with). I don't know, it's only my two cents.

I would like to recomend you some manga titles.

Makoto Yukimura's "Planetes"  Published in the U.S. by Tokyopop. It's only 4 volumes, but it's a great sci fi Drama and an amazing read. Comics at their best. 

Kio Shimoku's "Genshiken" (The Society for the Study of Modern Visual Culture), which is focused about the fun happenings of four comic books, video games, cosplay cartoons and the like. It's really, really funny(although it's heavy on Japanese cultural references, so you'd better read it with google at hand).

Hiroaki Samura's Sword of the Immortal, published by Dark Horse for more than a decade. Amazing, touching and humane story and incredible fight scenes to boot(Pete would definetively like this one). 

Keep up the great job guys!!! I am a big fan!

GREAT panel guys.
I'm with Alex on the not collecting comics for value issue. But I have met many manga fans who are stuck up the comic art "sucks".

Also, guys, please address how at barnes and nobles/borders, manga gets 8 shelves to the graphic novels 2 shelves(in bad organization). whats up with that?

i love how when alex says american fans say things "suck" he puts it in quotes and looks at pete.

Anyone that trash talks about manga before even reading it, proves that Alex's statement is true, "Mainstream comic book fans are a little too NARROWMINDED.
Why hate the other, when you can love both.

One of the major problems I see when people introduce other folks to Manga is that they pick some of the most obtuse titles that need a lot of work the new reader’s part to take in on their first attempt. This might be the coolest Manga you have ever read but keep in mind that you have been reading Manga for a while and you can accept more of the style than a new person can. 

An excellent example of this are a couple of the books reviewed in this episode. A book about Japanese Chess and a book about cooking… these two books are really not something that should be introduced to new readers. Any red-blooded American comic book reader cannot take cooking and chess seriously when they are used  to heroes worrying  about how their powers affect their family members sooo much that they have to turn to the devil to keep everything normal. Or characters that wants to get revenge sooo much about something that happened 40 years ago that they get their own comic book series that shows him getting this revenge.  I mean com on! America, FUNK YEAH!

Ok, back to the subject; A second big problem that seems to always be combined with the first is that a lot of people think that Manga is just one field of entertainment, everything “Manga” gets lumped up into one single thing when, in fact, it’s not. Comic book is the name of this entertainment field but there are different types, there’s super hero comics, indie comics, graphic novels, etc. Manga is the name of the field but its broken down to seinen, shonen, shojo, josei, etc, etc. There is literally a Manga book for each age group for both sexes and it doesn’t stop there. There’s Manga for people that just want to read about relationship, for women that spend all day at home baking apple pies, there is even Manga for almost every sport played in Japan. There is actually a manga for American Football for god’s sake! Almost every time we talk about comic books we usually mention what type it is, but when some one talks about a Manga nothing is said besides, “It’s a manga.” And that doesn’t tell about anything about the book. Manga some how ended up just being about people with big eyes, chicks with big boobs, and extreme character expressions. It would be sort of like saying comic books are just about people wearing really tight stuff with capes, that fight all the time for no apparent reason, destroying half the world in the process of doing good… that some how gets ignored or magically fixed by the next issue. You can’t boil down comic books to just that and you shouldn’t do the same with Manga. 

And lastly, can we stop with the comparing SI with BSG? SI is a remix of an old Avenger story where the Skrulls replaced some of the Avengers and THAT was a remix of and older story that has the Skrulls replacing the F4 to change public opinion.  So it IS something recreated for relatively new readers and no it isn't something borrowed from a TV show. 

In conclusion, Manga doesn’t mean just one type of a story being told, they are just as diverse, actually even more so, than American comics. So if you want to introduce some one, or if you want to sort of experiment and try some out, make sure you do a bit of research so you wont end up reading a Manga that’s made for 11 year old girls, Ok?

Manga-man signing off!

Great show you guys.
I'm not even gonna touch the manga vs comics subject but what I will say is...

Don't ever wear masks again..please

For those who say they don't like manga, do yourself a favour and go read Nausicaä of the Valley of Wind. Probably the best comic book I've ever read.

The thing about the fans argument is that it's apples and oranges.  In Japan, manga is a widely accepted artform, on par with books.  It is perfectly normal to see middle aged men reading manga on the subway; it's not a focused market like North American comics are. 

of course manga fans arent 'better' than mainstream comic fans, thats a bit of a playground question really. 

But there are more of them, by a vast margin, and I believe it is precisely because manga covers a wider range of subjects that manga regularly appears in national bestseller lists while 'mainstream' comics in collected editions dont.

I like bleach and lady snowblood as well as scalped, the unmen and the umbrella academy, so i would say - do review manga when you feel like it, so i know whats worth picking up and and what to avoid.

i loved the first issue of secret invasion but i am going to have to agree with alex and say that this feels a lot like what battlestar galactica has been doing with cylons.  but hey, if you're going to steal from another source i'm very happy that it's from bsg.  maybe it's bad timing but i still really enjoyed the first issue and i found myself gasping a couple times.

Manga is so bad it even makes DC look good

Oh My God. Alex is so right. you can see it on the faces of every comic artist and writer you guys interview. "Comics Are Wasted On Comic Fans" Instead of reading the books fans want a say in storytelling. Oh and don't be too depressing or too expensive Or too few pages (never mind the pace or structure of a story...just put in more pages cause the book is . ) And the best one is "don't review Manga" because now we want to dictate content on a fan site.! Embarrassing.  Leave the creating  of comics to the comic creators. 

I completely disagree with Alex's comments about American fans being too narrow minded to appreciate manga.  Hilariously enough, one of the reasons that I disagree is because manga itself is too narrow minded to appreciate manga.  The industry over there is not one that caters to creativity in terms of the artwork in their books.  It's very business like with publishers having house styles and not straying from them or making exceptions for new and different kinds of art styles.  As an artist, that's incredibly limiting and degrading.  Many artists have dropped out of the manga industry simply because they could not stand to have their artistic integrity compromised.

That sort of leads into my second point about American fans and our tastes.  While I will agree that most American fans are narrowminded when it comes to American comics (all you have to do is look at the Top 100 comics of every month to see that it's pretty much all spandex by the Big Two), our comics themselves are anything but cookie cutter.  These days Image Comics has reinvented itself as one of the premier publishers of really great indie comics that tackle a variety of genres with a variety of storytelling techniques and art styles.  The same can be said for Vertigo, Dark Horse, IDW, ASP, etc.  American comics have definitely branched out from the colorful heroes of the Silver Age and now encompass every sort of genre one can imagine, in every sort of distinct art style one can imagine.  I just do not see how manga can say the same thing.  

First of all i just wanted to let you know I was a anime/manga fan and reader before i became a mainstream comic fan. With that said Alex is sorta right for some comic readers. I know some collectors only have comics for the value. For me though i like have the books and getting them as they are released because i really like reading them. As for the narrowed mindedness i would like to ask Alex if he feels it come from the fact the some of the mainstream titles have such a long history? X-Men, Superman, Spiderman, and Batman all have been around for so many years; yes there have been remakes but still the basic elements are fairly the same in each remake or new rendition. Mangas are usually very limited and dont continue after the end of the story. also people dont come back from the dead that often in manga stories too.

Great show guys.

Alex, what day will Comic Book Club podcast be up?

Men of the STACK and FANS on VEOH TV there is translation for MANGA.
ALL SO HOW ABOUT ROCK STAR IN COMICS

Whattup Skrulls!  
Enjoyed the little "Secret Invasion" bonus section, but would have liked a little more detail in your review.  Did you guys think the folks who came out of the skrull ship were skrulls or just heroes being released from past captivity?  Thanks, Guys.

-ComicsAreCool.com

I love your show but:

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't ruin it by introducing Manga in it.

Manga fans blow! They always sit right in front of the comic trades shelf on the floor at Borders, so that I cannot comfortably browse for books. Manga fans are better possibly if you are a pedophile and like 13 year old girls, which in my experience is what the average Manga fan is.

I think manga is mainstream now. I went to a major book store a week ago and there was a ton of it on the shelves. Almost as much as American works. 
Although none of the manga titles you talked about sounded any good there are good ones out there.
I think superhero comics are more accepted in America, because the superhero genre was created so its a tradition here and also the majority of comic talent is concentrated there.
But there is a ton of good stuff that doesn't involve capes, it just doesn't get the limelight of the big 2

i think to a certain point alex makes a little sense because some comic book readers only like the action portion of comics and are upset when there is a lot of dialogue. But on the other hand i know manga lovers that dont like american anima because they say its too much fighting and not enough story. We all have the right to choose and pick what we want to read and we know what we like so i dont think that its fair to say that we are closed minded because i have read manga and the reason i dont read it one because you read it the opposite way and two no color. Also i was a big anima fan and the reason why i liked it was because it was serious stuff and now since ive gotten back into comics (only my first year) i see that there are serious things too and not always for children. So i think it goes both ways

maybe like a DC Marvel rivalry we should have a american comics vs manga rivalry lol

I agree with Pete here. 

Read Death Note you manga non-believers.

I'm pretty much on side with Pete on the manga issue. While super-hero based comics are certainly more popular in North America, it's unfair to exclude the indy and alternative press titles that exist and are becoming (IMO) increasingly available to the public. Preference of a genre, style or format doesn't necessarily indicate an unwillingness to accept others. 

Now I'm not a manga fan myself. The core art styles that seem fairly similar from one title to the next (with over-the-top poses et al) don't appeal to me as strongly. However, my daughter adores magna AND Astro City. So I think it's again, about personal preference not open mindedness.

As for the point about collecting for value, I think that pretty much hit its peak in the 90's. I think today, most readers know their comics collection isn't doubling as a retirement plan. Read what you love. Re-read what you love. Collect what you love so you can re-read at will. That's (IMO) the value.

(That and learning things like how gamma radiation can just really make life suck.)

I think mainstream comic book fans are better than manga fans. Here's why: 

Manga fans have NO ability to discern what is good from what is bad. Anything that is drawn in an anime style is AWESOME according to most manga fans. 

Mainstream comic fans can tell when comics are crap. While manga fans use the excuse: "oh well, that's Japanese humor, it doesn't translate as well". 

I am a comic book fan. Not necessarily a mainstream fan however, as I pick up more indie books per month than Marvel or DC. However, I do like SOME manga. Most of it however is just random crap, with the most insane humor, and constant fan service. 

There is SO few manga worth reading, I prefer just not picking up any of it.

Well this episode proved two things

Manga is stupid

Alex is stupid

Oh, and Marvel Rulez!

my main problem with manga is the cartoonish, or extremely over the top characters that dominate the medium.  the asian superhero doesn't interest me, perhaps it is the cultural differences or my own bias to the character templates of which i am accustomed, but the manga characters just seem silly and fit for children.  but with this said the apparent abundance of cleavage and short skirts negate the medium (some) for children, so then it seems fit for horny teens and perverted adults?  i just don't understand it lol. 

I don't like manga because of the exaggerated emotions they take time  do display, but I do envy the fact that nothing is too good lame to illustrate.  I agree with Alex somewhat about the narrow midness of U.S. comic readers but I think price. I am a collected editions guy. This way I don't have to wait for the whole story and by the time it comes out I have a good idea if its worth my time and money.  The only time I try something new if I find something at Half price books.  I only half so much money and shelf space so I forego stuff from Vertigo, IDW,Image and Oni.  I think people who like Batman just buy Batman books and people who like X-men buy X-Books and thats about it. Not everything needs to be fully rendered and put on glossy paper. Good stories can be presented with simple linework, coloring and on newspaper print. With cheaper prices I'd try more books. I might even buy some for my kids.

My instinct is that there is a similar variety among manga fans as among comic book fans. It seems very likely that there are manga readers who are only interested in a particular genre like fantasy action-adventure stories and read only those manga titles, whereas another reader might be interested in only stories that are more reality based and have no supernatural elements, such as the cooking one. 

This would be no different from comic book readers, where someone like Pete would only read the titles that involve fighting and superheroing, while Random Guy #12 only reads autobiographical stuff like American Splendor or Persepolis. 

So I think it may be true that the manga industry is in some ways better because it is willing to produce books on a huge variety of topics to appeal to a lot of different reader interests, whereas the comic book industry has a very definite perspective on what will be popular and all other topics have to be done by indie publishers. Now whether or not that is a direct result of fan behavior could be a whole other debate...but this post is long enough already. 

Manga.... sigh. Please no more. Alex yes you made the most ridiculous statement ever and I rarely agree with Pete's opinion of Comics.... 

Although I am no longer a fan of anime/manga like I used to be...I did agree with all of your points on manga. Manga can bring in great storys and action, but as Pete said, the over the top expression can kill a story.

Now it's the people in Japan who like that stuff, they feel that it is normal and funny to do this. But if you wanna make something dramatic then you dont have huge eyes and have a weird mouth shape on the character. It totally ruins any chance of hooking a reader and makes the story too over the top for me to read.

I disagree with your comments on Secret Invasion Alex. You need to have read most of the important comics in Marvel for the last five years in order to get the gist of these stories. If you havent read House of M, Civil War, New Avengers, or old Avenger stories...then you have no idea what the hell is going on. Oh and I think they only add the S.W.O.R.D. trivia in the issue...cause people probably have no idea what the hell it is lol But yeah great great great first issue, it got me hook for the next eight months for this series.

I have to agree with Alex on the premise that the general manga public is more open minded when it comes to the comic book medium than mainstream fans. The spectrum of comic available illustrates this as you can find non-superhero titles but they are far far less popular (Read Scalped!!) 

Because mangas are read by a larger demographic in Japan it is normal that there is a more varied content. Here because comics were aimed at teenagers the focus on the characters has created a certain cult of personality (sorry hero worship) which is guard vociferously (like our friend Pete) to this day. 

Saying that I’m sure there is are plenty of manga freaks out there defending mangas as the one true form of comics.

All fans are closed minded. Be a lover not a fan! 

I'm pretty much on side with Pete this time around. I don't think (North) American comics fans are really that narrow-minded. Super-hero comics are simply more popular here. But as Pete says, just check out the indy scene or even some of the (albeit few) alternate genre titles available within the larger companies (Jonah Hex leaps immediately to mind). I think comic fans appreciate good stories and art period.

As for collecting for value, I think that had it's heyday in the 90's and since then, people have realized that their collections aren't really a retirement plan. 

BTW, Manga isn't really my cup of tea. But my daughter adores it. In fact, I'd wager she'll love Iron Wok Jan simply because it's so offbeat!

I liked Secret Invasion, but I wasn't totally blown away. (I think I read too many spoilers). Still, pretty inertested in seeing where it goes from here. My LCS owner and I both think the cool part isn't going to be WHO the Skulls are. It's going to be HOW LONG have they been among the Marvel U.

Please, no more manga.  There's plenty of sites that already cover it only, so I'd prefer to keep this site on comics.

The way in which manga is so diverse mirrors what north americans watch on television. It just seem that there isnt the same acceptance transfered to an alternative medium. If comics are to survive, thrive and expand the must have a TV style audience. Now the cultural aspects (silliness) of manga I don't think will find a similar following here buecause Japanese (asian in general) society is so dramatically different in structure. However, the manga structure or approach, which was commented on, is probably a better approach in the long run than hording mentality of north american collectors. 

I read my comics, which admittedley are mostly trades, because i enjoy them, not because i expect them to someday to be expensive or increase in value. I think the difference is that mainstream and even indy comics are essentially for everyone in one culture, in the same way manga is for everyone in another culture. Manga to me sucks to the extreme and i can not be bothered one bit with it. But i am sure in Japan the same is said for superhero comics.

Oh, and if you do another manga special hand Pete a copy of Berserk

That Second one sounds an awful lot like Yu-Gi-Oh...I kinda agree with Alex as well, with that Variant Cover and collection talk. I honestly hope comics dont turn into Manga tho, I migrated to American comics because I got really sick of most Mangas...

I think to the extent that comic books are treated as some sacred artifact Alex is correct but I disagree with him about the fans. I have been a fan of anime and manga longer than I have liked comic books and I can tell you for certain manga fans are not all open minded. There is a large portion who are anime and manga elitists who look down on American animation and American comic books as inferior or "kid stuff." There certainly is a broader spectrum of stuff that is popular and in the mainstream but fans within the community can be just as vindictive of other genres of manga. So basically, it depends on the fan.

I think that Alex is right to a point. Just yesterday I had a guy essentially mocking how the value of my comics would never go up. Which to me is not something I care about, since I'm reading for the stories, not financial investment. But I do think that is a big problem for comic readers as many seem to be less concerned with the stories, and more involved with the collecting. I think collecting for value is almost useless at this point since it is done in such masses now.